How valuable lighting can be without being picked out as the main element To me. I know that without the lighting it would look like that right, but that to me means okay, I've done a good job. I manage my clients' expectations when I present the lighting design, so I need to make sure that when I do a concept, it's important to be able to create something that when they come to site, they're like ah yeah, that's what I expected to see.

when I present a design, I want to make sure that what I present I can actually realize welcome back to the virtual lighting design community podcast, a global platform that empowers, inspires, inspires, educates and connects the lighting design community.

This podcast is brought to you by our premium supporters Aero Hospitality Lighting, creative Lighting Asia, erco, the Signify Lighting Academy and Philix Lighting. In this episode, we bring you an insightful recording of Martin Clausen's engaging presentation at the UniOlympics event hosted at UNIOS HQ in Perth, western Australia. Martin shares his expertise by addressing seven key questions frequently asked in the lighting industry, covering topics such as the value of light, aesthetics, design direction, client demands, service delivery, thought process, innovation and client collaboration. The presentation wraps up with an interactive Ask Me Anything session, where the audience's well-thought-out questions contribute to a stimulating discussion. This episode not only provides valuable insights, but also offers a glimpse into Martin's extensive 45 years of industry experience, which he regularly shares through his platform. Lighttalk, available at lighttalkspace, offers a treasure trove of resources, including Martin's blog, books, masterclasses, mentoring and more. The presentation goes for just over an hour and is worth a listen right to the end.

We have an awesome opportunity to speak with a remarkable individual. We have Martin Klassen here with us today, so he's an. I don't even need to do this.

No, okay, let's go.

A bit of background about Martin is he's an award-winning lighting designer, he's a consultant, he's an lecturer and he's a resource speaker with more than over 40 years' experience in lighting design, martin was the first person deployed in Singapore to set up the project lighting division for Philips, all the way back in 1988 to start up their division for Asia Pacific. Based all those years ago, his passion for lighting design is now through his own company called Class and Lighting Design, where the head office is based in.

Singapore. We are very fortunate because Martin is actually based in Perth nowadays and so he's obviously based here, so he can share some of his knowledge and his learnings. Over the years, many of his designs have received national and international lighting design awards, and he's widely respected by the industry and his peers. Just a bit of a brief synopsis as well is he's a sought-after impact speaker and he has spoken at the Professional Lighting Design Convention, europe, europe, the ILD light fair in the USA, the Guangzhou lighting exhibition, the Hong Kong lighting fair, the light Middle East, the project lighting and lux light in world bets in Asia, and it just keeps going enough please help me.

Well, warmly welcome, mr martin class.

Thank you all right, can you hear me? Well? Yeah, okay, cool. Well, you said more than 40 years. In fact, this year is my 45th year in the business, so time to actually calm down a bit and relax. But thank you for the invitation.

I've been here, based permanently now since COVID times. I don't regret it. It's a fantastic time and place to be. I'll be sharing to you a few things, because what I would like to do is share some things that I've come across as a light designer. Obviously, I come to project sites. I've visited other manufacturers not only you guys, but I've met many of those over the years. So I want to share all that, what it also means to me, through a number of questions and at the end of it, I'll leave the floor to you guys to ask me literally anything you want. There's nothing off the table. You can ask me anything. If I don't have the answer, I'll let you know honestly, but in principle, you can ask anything. So first I would like to tell you a little bit more so that you get an even better understanding from where I'm coming from and what I'm doing nowadays. First of all, as Paley mentioned, I have my class in lighting design, which is my core business head office in Singapore. We have a little office here. We have an office in Shanghai, jakarta and nowadays also in Portugal and Europe.

I've stepped a little bit away from the main business. I've stepped a little bit away from the main business, trying to focus more on the educational things that also are important to me. That's why I like doing this kind of thing sharing my knowledge. There's no point for all the knowledge staying in here, so it's nice if I can share it with you guys, and that's why please ask any questions afterwards, so at least you can make use of that. Ask any questions afterwards, so at least you can. You can make use of that. And this is the platform on which I'm now actually speaking to you.

I have created, since many, many years, light talk. I have a blog that maybe some of you may be following. I actually brought some books with me and, if I'm correct, those people who ask questions get the book. Is that something like that? So there's quite a number of books there, and that gives you an insight on my life as a lighting designer. So, first of all, kld. There's heaps.

You go to the website, you will find a lot of projects, a lot in hotel industry. These are some of the things that you can find here in Perth, like Palace Hotel, majesty Theatre, things like Riverside Drive, but sometimes we also go down south, like to Market River, where we do wineries and things like that. So I'm really enjoying doing projects in Western Australia, where we also do hotels up in Headland, karata, broome. I've just started one down south as well, but doing a winery has nice perks because then you can also do a bit of wine drinking. This was during actual testing of the lighting, by the way, because we needed to see how it works with real wine and how we can appreciate the taste and the whole experience. If you go down to Margaret River this is Cape Mantel the guy on the right, nicolas, is still there. You can say hello to him. But yeah, this will actually be an IES award recently. This project Good To the order of the day. So you know a bit what I'm doing in that respect.

What I wanted to do is put a number of questions of myself, give you the feedback on how I think about these things and what these values mean to me as a lighting designer, and at the end I'll invite you to really ask any questions that I may not have touched upon, because there's so many things. I'm just taking a snapshot here of things, right? So my first question is about the value of light, and I'm often asked what is the biggest insight I have learned from working in lighting design industry over the many years when I do my projects. And the answer may possibly surprise you, because the answer is that for me, the best comment that I can get about a lighting design that I've done is actually no comments at all, because if I don't get any comments, it somehow means it's totally and harmoniously integrated in the rest, because lighting doesn't exist by itself. It's part of architecture, it's part of interiors, it's part of an experience.

Now, those of you from Singapore, they probably know the Atlas Bar. That, to me, is one of my favorite projects, because even when I enter it myself, I'm awed by the whole feeling, and it's not just the lighting, though. I have to say, if you knew the Atlas Bar before, when it was still called the Divine Bar or something, with the little angel going up the tower, that is a huge difference. But when you come in, you feel really immersed in this ambience and mood, and obviously lighting plays a very big role in this ambience and mood and obviously lighting plays a very big role. So what has this done? The lighting? It has been integrated, even if you look at this picture, even though it may be a bit small for you.

But if you look at the picture, lighting is really not specifically present. It's in there, but you can't really see the light sources. Maybe the pendants show off a little bit. But one of the things I think I can show here Can you see my? No, you can't see the Anyhow. There's a suspended system, a rig that hangs roughly at the level of the mezzanine balconies and it has been finished in a copper polished feeling reflecting the environment. So you actually don't really see, okay, and then, ah, okay, cool, thank you, maybe you should stay here, but anyhow, you see this structure here, right, that is suspended from the ceiling. It's suspended from four points only. So you can imagine the structural Too difficult word the technical prowess that went into designing that and making sure it's properly suspended. But you can hardly see it and that was key in the whole design trying to make the light disappear and really bring out the interiors. So there's, okay, the cove lightings I think you can all imagine, but bringing out these decorative paintings in the ceiling by soft washing them.

We had to really test all that right. It was really important to make sure it comes out. It's not just, oh, we put it there, no, we actually did visual mock-ups on site to make sure. Even from this structure that's pending, we have like a 90 degree angle from about three meters. This way, three meters this way fabricated, suspended and tested to make sure that the lights are in here. You can see those little black points here.

These are remote controlled lights. That means they can actually take away the furniture and use the space as a function space. So that means that if there's a different setup, you want to change the lighting. So rather than to climb up a ladder because this is about four or five meters high so it's not easy to to adjust with your hands. So that was done with remote control lighting. We have different settings to to account for that. But there's little lights included in here.

If you look at it, it's all very nicely and softly integrated and to me that was key to getting this as a harmonious lighting. And when people come in they look at the totality. They don't say, oh, the lighting is beautiful. Nobody really says the lighting is beautiful. It's more like, oh, it's the space and if? If you've been in there, you'll know what I mean, right? So, yeah, that's basically to me how valuable lighting can be without being picked out as the main element To me. I know that without the lighting it would look like that, right, but that to me means okay, I've done a good job.

Now, if we talk about aesthetics and design direction, what has lighting design? How does it impact in project? How can you make lighting design impact? What do you do? How do you get it to sort of stand out? Because we have all standard solutions, but in order to create something memorable, sometimes you need to think out of the box, right, and that is something that you need to dare, because you can take a proven recipe in terms of lighting just downlights or wall washers but doing something that's not really done before, or do it a bit differently, is something that also takes guts, but also takes the necessary knowledge in terms of being able to educate your client on how to do that, because you may want to do something, but if the client can't follow you and doesn't understand why you want to do it, then you will have a difficult proposition.

So this is our Nera Hotel in Xitang, just outside Shanghai. Xitang is, by the way, where Mission Impossible 3 was filmed, where Tom Cruise runs over the roofs and along the water town. That's where this is, just outside. So this narrow hotel has a courtyard right here with water body. So there's no lighting in here. Everything is reflected in the water body. So that's also a very purposeful decision not to put any lights in the water but use that water surface to extend the lighting and lighting effects. So you can see it's all reflected there is. So it's a modern architecture with a traditional Chinese pavilion in the middle, but you can see everything is reflected. So it's important to understand how the architectural and the rest work together.

But what we did you see here a bit of blue what we have done in this project as a dare to be different thing, is a light show, and the light show is done by using the public areas. So we've got like the reception bar here, this lobby entrance. Here there's a library, there's a tea house and behind is a restaurant and and another bar. All these are on a and another bar. All these are on a. All the core chart facing areas have colored lighting, but they only come on at a certain time, like every half hour, I think. The current program is for about five to ten minutes and lights will change. So you can see, here it's blue, then it becomes red and sometimes the light moves, but it's not very fast thing. It's a very soft moving experience. So when you're in the bar, in the restaurant, suddenly say oh, something is happening and you can see how that suddenly impacts and people stand still and they look and, oh, that's nice, but it's not disruptive as being a, that's nice, but it's not disruptive as being a very pompous light show, but it's something very soft in the background. And now this hotel is used by architects, designers. They come there for study tours, apparently I've been told nice to know but but it's the design principles that we have applied in this hotel are now used for many designers, specifically architects and interior designers, to show them how light and architecture can be integrated together. The colors are very warm. It's really nice.

What we also found that in countries like China they are a bit more daring, right? So if you have ideas on what you could do, you also need a client that is willing to experiment. I find it in Australia a bit more difficult. They're very this way here, right, if you go to countries in Asia possibly also because rules are maybe a bit less followed I don't know how to say that nicely you can do more things right. They're willing to experiment. Here. Everything has to comply with this, comply with that, right. But in Asia, and China specifically, I find the clients very willing to experiment and do things like this. So that's one of the experiences that I feel you need to explore and sometimes push the envelope a little bit. And that's also where you need your relationship with you guys, because I may have it in here, but I also need to be able to talk to people like yourself that know what you can do with your products, to see how we can manage to do this. So that's an important message that I would like to share Now.

Another one is differences in client demands. We have clients from all over the world that have different ways of dealing, different ways of dealing right. So this is very much about what is important to a client depending on where you are. In Australia, my clients are different than when I'm in China, and I reference a lot to China because we do a lot of jobs also in China, india, middle East, but I can now reference it also very well with what we do here in Australia. So when I focus on the projects here and in Asia, what I found the main difference is basically quality versus quantity. In China, every dollar counts I know here as well but it's different In China, it's literally every dollar, right here.

Yes, of course we want to be budget, but a spec is a spec most of the time in Australia and a lot of the clients, if I don't sign off, they don't sign off. Right, we are currently working with NX here in Perth. Right, that's a Lendlease. No, is it Lendlease Anyhow? One of those, but very strict, and they definitely if I don't sign off on the project, they don't take the responsibility of signing off. In China, asia, it's not the same. If I don't sign off, they don't take the responsibility of signing off In China. Asia is not the same If I don't sign off, they don't care, right? I mean I'm saying that a bit exaggerated, but that's really the case.

So, for instance, here this is the Hong Kong Jockey Club that chandelier. You wouldn't be able to see whether it's crystal or just cheap glass, right, but there's a hell of a difference in price. If you're in China, I can bet you that's either plastic or very, very cheap glass, right? In this case it was a bit different. There was actually one of those real chandelier makers like it was Preciosa or Lasvit or some of those people. So that cost a lot of money. But most of the time these kind of things in China are reproductions, cheap copies, right, and they save a lot of money. Now I can push it, say, well, I can't accept it, but how strong is that? That would be more the interior designer or the architect who needs to come in tandem with me to say, well, listen, the sparkle is not there if you don't have extra crystal glass, right. So that's the one of the key elements that we have to work with continuously.

Sometimes it's also called value engineering I'm sure you have heard that word as well where you start here and then you have to end up somewhere here because they don't have that sort of budget now. Tip, or just secret sharing. If we want to end up here, we sometimes propose here, right. So we may know that the client only has this sort of budget. But in true Asian fashion, if I propose something here. I'll end up here anyhow. So I may as well propose here that when I got through my negotiations and value engineering, I roughly arrived where I want to be. So what do I do? I add in a few lighting points that I know I can get rid of later on, don't tell. But that's a way to somehow achieve where you want to be, because you know that very often. But even here in Australia, there's also a lot of value engineering going on. But in China, in Asia, it's very strong. So you need to be prepared Even for our own fee negotiations. If I want to have 100 as fee, I need to propose 120. Because I will need to negotiate, so knowing that. But it finds its way in our lighting design as well. So sometimes we propose some extra downlights, some nice to have, but not critical. That's how we can manage sometimes.

The cost-quality relationship yeah, so that's the cost versus quantity and quality. Now service delivery. I mentioned to you before when I was talking, before I started. Is that service is really important. Right, when we deliver our projects, we really need to have a very good relationship with the suppliers and the manufacturers. So what are some of the key issues that we face when we're delivering our services. Well, I think quality control and speed of delivery is part of it. I just mentioned value engineering.

This needs an ongoing discussion with the specified products that we have in mind. In this case. We are talking to you, right? So, if I have specified a certain level, sometimes we can engineer the light, the products, to a slightly lower cost by just simplifying it. I don't know we haven't gone to that extent yet with you, but I've had projects where I specified a certain brand. Let's say the fitting was $300 and the client said, sorry, I only have $200. So rather than to go to an alternative, I would go back to the manufacturer and listen, they only have $200 for this. Can we try and maybe simplify the product or use, whatever it is, maybe a simpler core element?

I know most of the products are off the shelf and regularly manufactured, but sometimes there's an opportunity to simplify the product so that you can still be the one that supplies, right? So I think that's important to understand that we not necessarily need to jump straight away to another brand If we like what the product does. Sometimes it can be simplified to still meet. We also look at potentially reducing the quantities, right? So not necessarily reducing the quality, but reducing the quantities. So taking out the number of flights, and then there is the speed of delivery that you know, technically our clients always wanted. Yesterday I think that's common throughout the world and specifically in Asia I found that they and then you deliver it and then you don't hear anything for a month. So they want it very fast and then nothing happens. But that balance and finding the way to deliver the service is really quite important.

What you see here in this picture is a project meeting somewhere in China. In this case it was in Yangshuo in the Guilin Mountains. It was freezing cold. It was January, I think. It was zero degrees outside and we still had a meeting, but there's no heating. So, as you can see, there's some braze, some coals and we were frying bananas on that as well. But that was our meeting. But that also shows the sort of how do you explain that? The relationship with the client that we're still coming there, we're still doing it. So your delivery is not only having a meeting in a comfortable hotel room, but it's also sometimes going to site under the circumstances that are not always pleasant. You see people wearing jackets and overcoats and it was really cold, it was probably about three or four degrees in there but we still have our meeting and we try to walk ourselves through whatever issues there were on hand. Yeah, I mean, one time I met Kate Mantel having a drink with a glass of wine, but the other day I may be like this in a meeting, so there's a lot of contrast. But what I'm trying to say is servicing your client for us is really important, and that doesn't come just with us being there. It also comes with your support in the background, knowing that you have our backs when we specify the products.

Now the thought process is about what makes lighting a good design and again I'm trying to, because of my experience throughout Asia, middle East, etc. I'm trying to give you a bit of a perspective between Eastern and Western values, and I'm using here NX Mall, which you can go and have a look at in town. I'm actually not sure this is your lighting, isn't it? Isn't that yours? Ooh Lucky. So one of the key things that I want to say is that lighting design, the concept is as good as the final implementation. I can have beautiful renders, I can do beautiful concepts, but if it doesn't look good in the end, all that is not worth a lot, Right? So what I need to do is to make sure that I manage my clients expectations when I present the lighting design. So I need to make sure that when I do a concepts on the right hand it's a render which we created out of a 3d model. On the left is what it became in the end. Now, it's fairly close. I have it in this way. There's another color here. It's important, close. I have it in this way. There's another color here.

It's important to be able to create something that when they come to site, they're like ah yeah, that's what I expected to see, right? And in this case, this is what happened. Client was very happy, signed off, paid off, was all good. Now we're doing NX Mall, the interiors and the St George's Terrace facade. This is the Hay Street facade. But it's really important to be as realistic as possible and manage the client's expectation in terms of what it is they're going to get. There's no point in making. I've been to China and some of you may have seen it as well. I see renders and when I see the renders, I said no way right, because I know from experience that when I see that render, there's no way they're gonna be able to do that in reality. Now the client may fall for it oh beautiful, it's nice and then they come to site and say is that it? Yeah, so that's important, I think, to me. When I present a design, I want to make sure that what I present I can actually realize, and that again also relates back to how we develop the relationship between you guys and ourselves making sure that we can deliver also on performance, making sure that we can deliver also on performance.

Innovation. Now, this relates back also to IoT, because there's a lot of things happening in our world. Technology advances very, very fast and for us, as for you, it's not easy to keep up with everything, right. So that's where our line design of things also comes in, but it's trying to understand what's going on and how do we reflect that in a project. So what I'm trying to say is that integrating innovation is, in a way, a progress. It's important to do that, and this picture shows that it used to be all about oil and things like that. That was the main commodity that drives the whole economy. Nowadays it's data, and that brings it closer to our turf, because data collection now happens in all the spaces.

You have sensors everywhere and what is happening is that the light fitting of the future well, not so far future. Some of them, it's already here. It's a bit like your mobile phone. Let's say, 15, 20 years ago your mobile phone was only used to text message and call. Who still use their mobile phone to do that? Your mobile phone is predominantly a data bank that you use to take pictures, to do your banking. Everything goes through your mobile phone. There's hundreds of apps which are not much related to phones. You FaceTime, maybe with each other and things like that. So what is happening with light fitting is pretty much similar. So there's a lot of things going into a light fitting, that in the fitting of the future.

I predict that 80% of the light fitting is all about data and had nothing to do with lighting. That means it's an IP point, it is an internet point. There will be GPS positioning to that. You can monitor what's happening. You get air quality measurements, you can get sound measurements, you get temperature, humidity, presence you name it. All these kind of things can be registered to a simple sensors. There are sensors that can do three or four things in one tiny little sensor, right. So because lighting is also present in each and every space, lighting is the ideal infrastructure to include data, and that's what we see happening more and more Now. The sensor, or the data collecting point, is outside the lighting point most of the time, but it's only very short until that starts to be integrated, and it's already started to be integrated in lighting. Some lighting manufacturers provide already the option to include a sensor in their lights which can do some of these functions.

Then it's not about what to measure, but what you do with the data. So you can collect any of this information, but what do you do with it? So then you need to convert this data information into useful content creation. Let's say that way in our case for lighting. But because lighting is our turf as lighting designer, we need to somehow stay in control of that lighting point and not the data people. They say, oh, I need one point here, otherwise my Wi-Fi coverage is not good, or I need this for my Bluetooth, this and that, whatever. So we are trying to promote for us as lighting designers to at least remain in control of what happened with the lighting point, even as the data content becomes bigger and bigger. Now I don't know how far you are as Unios in terms of integrating smart components, data collection, etc. But if and when you do this is something that needs very careful consideration, also when you message that to your end users and clients. But yeah, it is very much about that.

I also mentioned here social media, in a way, because nowadays, when we finish a project or when we design a project, it's also how is it going to look on Facebook? How is it going to look on Instagram, right? We even have projects where people on social media commented on the lighting and then we started to adjust the lighting, right. This is an interesting thing, because we all are on our little mobile phone and trying to check out what's happening on social media to check out what's happening on social media. But it has a big influence on lighting design as well, because we need to create those money shots that people like to take pictures with, right. So that's an important part on doing a lighting design nowadays as well, thinking about how that can be promoted to the social media.

Finally, before we go to ask me anything, something about client collaboration, because we get presented quite a lot of projects and every time I have to think shall we do it? Shall we not do it? So if you know the client, obviously no, no issue. But sometimes we don't know the client. Sometimes it looks good and you only know afterwards whether you had a good relationship with a client or not. So to me it's all about trust and respect. I think if a client can respect you as a lighting designer, can trust you to do your job, then you have a good relationship. Because I've had too often that they don't really. They want you there just to be able to point their finger, but they don't really always trust you or they want to do their own thing.

So developing a relationship with the client to us is key. Finding or creating an environment in which you feel that they trust you is also very, very important, right, and that they respect your decision, respect your recommendations. Now, that is a two-way street, because if they say, wow, yeah, but it's nice what you want to do, martin, but um, I don't have that sort of money to do that, or can we do it this way? So it's a two-way street. And when you show understanding for where they are, but you can also educate them at the same time why you want to do something, making sense for them to maybe spend the money to do something. That's where you create a really nice relationship. And this is one of my favorite photos, where my client really hugs me at the end of the grand opening to thank me for what we have done. And, as I said at the bottom, as a bonus, if you have a happy client, I can tell you they don't have any hesitation to pay you.

So developing that trust and respectful relationship I think is key, but you have to work on it and you have to really be open. It's not like my way or the highway. It is something that is a two-way street that you develop this particular client I'm doing two more hotels with him now. He's become a really good friend, but it's the relationship that we have developed and his trust in that what I'm giving him is the best value for money. So, having said that, I would say let's take questions from you, because otherwise I can get on and on. There's so many things you may want to ask me about lighting design, so please feel free. Anything you want to ask me, I'm happy to take it. Thank you, applause, applause applause.

Thanks, martin, that was amazing. Obviously we've met before and part of my role is between western and eastern design and culture, working across Singapore and Thailand with my colleague John, who's here today as well. I really like your contrasts and comments between the two sides of the world. What would be your opinion of Unios just in your experience with us so far? That makes us stand out in terms of what we offer, whether it's product or service, and the reason I ask is we see a lot of comparison to all sorts of brands, everything from very low market of names I've never heard of to some of the most elite and the best in the game.

What would you say is maybe one unique thing that we offer that you've seen so far.

I'm a bit prejudiced because I know Paley for quite a while, so that relationship is already important. To be honest, no, no, but as I mentioned, the relationship knowing that me or my team can call you right, like listen, we have specified your product. We really like your product. It gives good value for money, right, like listen, we have specified your product. We really like your product. It gives good value for money, right, and I think where you are with your price point is also quite competitive. So I think that's an important thing. So you don't start off like the high Iguzini Erko level. You're, if I'm not mistaken, a bit more competitive, so that helps in the environment where we live in today, in the economical climate. But, as I mentioned before, the service that you provide and the peace of mind that you give us is, to me, really important. Knowing that I can call PayDee or yourself at any time if I have an issue, not only me but also my team, is something that's really important, because some of the lower brands, very cheap ones, whether from China, india, whatever, wherever they would be you can try and call them, but most of the time there's nobody home, right? Even the so-called warranty that they would provide. You ask five years warranty, sometimes even 10 years warranty. We may ask you want to try with the cheaper brands? They will say yes, but if there's an issue with warranty, try to reach them Right.

So that is a relationship that's being built up. You follow through on that as well. So it's not just something that we talk about, it's something that in real life, when projects come to life and we experience the relationship, the working relationship with you, which makes us work with you Right To me and of course you're not the only one Right. But maintaining that level of support and interest and willingness to support I think is key. You have already very good products. We can have an ongoing discussion about how we can improve products further, if you want any input in that. I'm doing that sometimes with Paley. If we have some issues like like oh, can we do this or that? That's that's on top, is the icing on the cream or the cherry on the cream, whatever expression is. But that's important as well. But that relationship, that we feel comfortable and know that if we specify unios, they'll be there when it matters.

Hi Martin, thank you for such an insightful presentation.

I'm quite passionate about lighting design as well, so I have quite a few questions.

Yeah, go for it.

What would you say is your most memorable project that you've worked on?

I think it's those projects where, well, probably this one is certainly one of my memorable projects because I got basically a hug of the kind I don't know how many of you have ever had a hug from your client, but to me I haven't had a lot of those, right, I mean they're normally very respectful, but to me I haven't had a lot of those. I mean they're normally very respectful, but to give me a hug, you know that's something, it touches you because you can feel the passion and their happiness about what they have. So, sittang, if you ever come around there, please visit it. I think also, the Atlas Bar in Singapore is one of those projects when you come in and you feel, ah, I really did a nice job. Right Closer to home, we just completed stage one of the Headland Hotel, which was a property that just faces the turtle breeding beach.

I don't know if those people know Headland, but this is called Centenary Beach or something like that, but there's turtle breeding. So the lighting that we needed to apply needed to all comply with turtle breeding, environmental biodiversity, blah, blah, blah all these things what you need to apply. But the client was also very how do you say that compliant in helping it come to life. They were supporting it even though it was way above the budget that they had in mind. They wanted to make a point, but when it was finished they were so happy.

Even Rita Schiaffosi was the name of the tourism minister. She came down as well. She was invited. They invited her because they felt this is something special. So that project also has a big meaning for me because we managed to contribute with the lighting also to doing it in the right way, because there's a lot of talk about dark sky and light pollution and being friendly to natural habitat and all that. So that project really had a client that get along, went along with it, supported it of course, uses it for marketing et cetera. But that also gave me a lot of satisfaction being able to do that yeah.

In your many years of experience so far, have you had a, or what was the moment that you that was like, oh shit, like and like in a during a project, and how did you overcome that?

Where do I start? My very first memory. I've got quite a lot of them, but I'll just pick out a few, because it's not always flowers and good endings. One time and it's not always since I'm the boss of the company the bug starts with me, even though my staff may have made a mistake. But I remember one day that we select and I'm talking about 20 years ago or something, or maybe even more but we had selected a light fitting from a catalogue, but it was somehow put into a drawing in which we didn't read the scale properly. So the actual fitting, when it was installed, looked so minuscule compared to the actual dimensions, was installed, looks so minuscule compared to the actual dimensions that, yeah, it was clearly a mistake because we hadn't properly looked at the dimensions. It looked odd. Lighting, luckily, was okay, but what do you do as a lighting designer when that happens? Oh no, this is, this is how we wanted it to be right. So, as a designer, you always have a whole list of things that you can go through, like why it's not your fault, but we know, of course, that we should have done better.

Another thing that I want to highlight is the difference in culture and acceptance. Like I did a project many, many years back in Pakistan and we did an office lighting. So if you follow standard rules for lighting levels in offers, you talk about three to five hundred lux or something for for an office. Right, so we went about it, designed beautiful lighting, we achieved all this and then, when it was in, well, did we get to install it? Yeah, we get to install it. They said, well, it's way too bright. And why was it too bright? Because we didn't account for what they were used to work in At that time.

If you go to offices in Asia Pacific in general, whether it's India, Pakistan, some of the offices they work with 50, 100 lux. That's a luxury already for them. And then we came with like 300 to 500 lux. They said, no, no, no, no, there's not. That's totally, totally wrong. We should have designed maybe to 200 lux or something to improve, but so their mind is not set to that right. So, yeah, you can explain why it has to be 3 to 500 lux.

But that I found was a missed opportunity to educate the client properly about where they're at, where they should be, and maybe find a way, a compromise in between, In the same way, like in Japan they're very much used to having bare fittings, so they feel that that brightness in an office works well. And then they complain that they don't have enough lighting on their desk Because obviously there's hardly any optics if you have a bare bulb. So we designed optics to really push the light down so with half the amount of light we could have double the amount of light on the desk. Again they complained it's not bright. Now it was not bright enough Because they were so used to. They said, yeah, but that's late, Now you can focus. Yeah, but we Japanese we're different, Our eyes are different or whatever they were saying, and it sounds strange, but that's the sort of weird discussions you have sometimes. So again, a sort of missed opportunity to communicate and educate.

We shouldn't be designing from behind our desk. We need to be able to be at the location to understand how people currently work and how your design will impact them. A lot of designers work from behind their desk and never actually go to the site where lighting is being implemented. So that's also a big lesson. Nowadays it's very rare for me to take on a project if we can't go to site, certainly because we do projects all over the world.

Here in WA it's maybe easy. You can easily go to site, certainly because we do projects all over the world. Here in WA it's maybe easy, you can easily go to a project. But if you have to go to India or China or Middle East, it takes something in extra cost for the client also for you to go there. In the same way, based on that first story I told you, we nowadays hardly ever specify a product if we haven't had it in our hands and have been able to play with it. We don't. That was one of the lessons that sort of triggered never specify just from a catalogue, Just have it in your hands, play with it, make sure that you understand it.

Yeah, We'll come back to that. Yes, sorry, john, it's you. John, it's just based on what you were kind of just talking about. So when it comes to like education on, you know, two big things is obviously what you mentioned, like colour, temperature and brightness, especially. You know people have so many varying ideas of what that specific person wants that may be against all the science and documentation and everything, and out there.

How do you go about? Kind of obviously there's a all right, I'm not saying you know one right way, one wrong way, but there is a kind of way you probably should do things, just based on you know the evidence and things. How do you go about educating people and and then maybe them saying, no, just do it the wrong way because that's what I like, like the ones that you were just talking about, do you ever get to a point where you want to just fuck it, go in there yeah, you really want to go in the way, because there's a hundred people and they're going to be in there for 10 hours a day and you really want to be beneficial for as many people as possible.

So that's the sort of communication between you and the client. If you go in a meeting room with 20 different people, it's very hard sometimes to get through right. If I'm in China in a meeting, first of all I don't speak Chinese a few words, but not really and that's very hierarchical. So that means if I talk to one person, then that person needs to get approved from the higher authority and it's like all this chain of command. So the project manager will say, yeah, I agree, it will be good. And then the next person which is higher up, because the boss doesn't talk directly sometimes. So they will come. No, I don't agree.

So first of all, the director of communication line with the ultimate decision maker. The more direct it is, the better it is to sort out things. That as a general point. Secondly, I have my own style in how I like to design things. So I may like 3,000 Kelvin, somebody else may like 4,000 Kelvin. My reasoning for using 3,000 or 2,700, 2,000, whatever it is are my reasons from years of experience. So it's about my ability to communicate, why I'm the designer. So you hired me as a designer, right? So if you trust and respect me, that's what my recommendation is based on my experience in whether it's a hotel, whether it's an office or a sports facility, whatever, I have my experience and I find that this works best. Does it mean so if the client comes up with, yeah, but I would like to do this way, this way, what do you think? Then I won't be on my high horse saying no, no, no, I'm doing it this way. No, you have to listen to your client.

Number one prerequisite for a designer is to be able to listen right. It's not about what I want, it's about understanding what the client wants. But with your experience, if he has something that could work as well, you can leave that as an option. Say listen, your call. My recommendation is this what you want is also possible. It's not necessarily a bad thing. If it's a bad thing, I'll tell him.

I say listen, no, that won't work, because this, this, this, always give a reason. I can't just say no. But if his option is also nice but I feel not really what I would do, but it's possible I'll leave him the option. In the end, he is the client, he's the one that won, but I have to explain and put it on a platter to him. Well, this is why I want to do this. This is what you want to do, what the plus and minus points are, and then you're trying to work it out that way, right, most of the time that works, but the more interference there is in terms of people involved, right, the more difficult it is to achieve that. Yeah, yeah, thank you.

Hi, I'm Elaine from the Vietnam team. So thank you for your presentation, martin. I do have a question on the differences in client demand when you mentioned about Asian, and in Western, when Asian all about cost over quality. So you mentioned about simplifying products if needed for cost efficiency. I would love to hear from a lighting designer expert about what can be compromised for cost efficiency, if it's possible.

Of course, it's very project dependent. Value engineering is a very tedious job, right? So when? Let me just lead you through the process, maybe that will help you.

So when we design, we generally specify products that we are familiar with, that we know the performance, we know the quality, we know the end result, we know what it will give us. As I mentioned before, because we know the tendency to value engineer, we may select the slightly higher option when we do a design, possibly even a more expensive brand, knowing that we have a backup brand if necessary, right? It's just to understand, because sometimes, when you ask the client for a budget, most of the time we said no, we don't have a budget, right. But when you present a budget, it's too much, right. So that's a typical way how it goes. So, knowing that we try to establish the performance and quality level that we want in terms of the lighting effects, the mood, ambience, et cetera, which means we have product X, y, z that will do the job, but in selecting the product we will try to be slightly above what we want, knowing that the client will most probably ask us to reduce costs, then we have to present a budget because once we have made a selection, we know the quantities, we know what type of fixture and we will ask you please provide me with a budget, provide us with a costing, so we can let the client know this is what it will cost. When you give us a budget, we generally add in another 10% just to have some negotiation space, just for you to know. It's important because we know how it goes. And then sometimes there's a contractor in between and all these kind of things. So we need to manage that process.

So when the budget is presented to the client, which generally is X factory, we put all those disclaimers, like you know, without freight cost and without whatever. So that, no, without installation sometimes as well. Sometimes they want it, but generally like that there's also an element of lighting, controls and things like that. So we present it to the client and then when the client comes back and says it's too expensive, you need to value engineer, we will go through that budget and we will focus on the high cost item. If I have three fittings of $2,000, there's no point in really trying to value engineer that. But if I have 100 fittings that are $1,000, then I can definitely try and do something. So I'll focus on the high-quantity budget items, because that's how I can. Potentially. So if I have only four or five or just a few, normally we won't focus on that in terms of value engineering. It will be the big ticket items because they have the biggest impact in terms of value engineering.

Now, if we can simplify it, we may go back to you and say listen, can you look at the price again, because this one is really tough for us. We would like to keep it in, but if you can sort of reduce, reduce it, that would be really helpful. Maybe you have a simplified alternative right? In this case you are a brand. If I go to Mondolucci, they may have a few alternative brands. That is say, well, within the same supplier, we may be able to offer this or this right? That's the way that would go. So we'll try to stay within the preferred supplier in this case. If it's still not possible, then we may need to look at another alternative.

But we gradually work our way down. Yeah, so that's basically the process in which we try to work it. Sometimes we may be able to review the design a bit. So where we had linear lights, we may be able to achieve something similar with wall washers, for instance, for instance. So there may be design elements in which we can simplify the lighting without really affecting the mood and ambience and lighting effects too much. So that will be another avenue in which we can try and reduce cost, but it can be quite tedious. Another point I would like to mention is that there are clients sometimes that want I don't know how many alternatives. So we do our specs and they want two or three other options. We try to avoid that because there's a lot of work, right, but yeah, that's another part of doing the value. Engineering is to look to all that Hi.

Martin. Hi, my name is June and I work in marketing, so a lot of my job is actually looking at the finished projects and all of that and try to guess the lighting design intentions behind it. It's a very hard work and I've obviously lost half the time. But one thing I know about lighting designers and people who work in lighting is that you go everywhere and you just see the light everywhere. Yesterday I was walking with Paley and he's just looking at the lights, literally commenting on everything, so I was wondering what is your thoughts on our lighting design? It's just also to help me inform, understand your thought process a bit more. Let's just take that breakout space at the back as a canvas, for example.

If you can just give us a little pointer on what's great, what can improve and what impresses you about it, that would be great. I don't know if I'm starting anything.

Where do I start? Dive into the table and learn for a minute.

I have a very simple rule in this kind of thing If I have not designed the space right, it's very hard for me to comment right, because there may be so many reasons behind what is there that I'm not aware of. I can say, well, why did you choose this? I don't know all the background reasons. So, as a professional, also respecting another professional that may have worked on this to achieve it, I generally stay away from comments. No, but it's very difficult because I may give you a comment and say, yeah, but that was because this or this or this, so it's an endless story. In that way, right, overall, I feel this place, I think you have done a great job.

I was here at the opening when you guys opened this and I think, compared to the many, many factories I visited, many HQs of manufacturers visited, this one really is somewhere at the top in terms of the way it's not ERCO but it's quite close to the level of professionalism. Everything looks clean, is nice, is organized, lighting levels are all very nice. The mood and ambience I think is befitting of what you're trying to portray here as a manufacturer. So I can only say congratulations with this HQ, because you really make a point towards many other manufacturers around the world. So, from my point of view, well done.

Go do it.

Thank you so much.

Hi, my name is Long, from Vietnam.

Let's get back to the Atlas bar that you showed, because I really liked it and I have one question for you what are the do's and don'ts in hospitality, especially bars?

The do's and don'ts. Yeah, for lighting, right? Good question, because sometimes I think I just do it because I know that's how I do it. Thinking about why I actually do it is sometimes a bit more difficult. Well, an environment like a bar, like that it's about the experience, right? People go in. It's not about the lighting, it's about people coming in, socializing, feeling comfortable and not sitting there and having a glary light.

The main thing that you do as a designer is to try to put yourself in the position of the end user. I need to understand what is it that's going on. I can't design a space if I don't know where the furniture is, if I don't know what is actually taking place in that space. Like many engineers, they will just put a uniform lighting grid for downlights and they dim it up and down. That's it. Our lights are focused specifically to what is going on in that space. Understand the flexibility that is needed when things change right. Understand that there is an early day part of the experience and a late night experience as well. When you go down there in the Atlas Bar, you'll notice that if you come there at six, seven o'clock in the evening, the lighting mood is totally different than when you come there at 10 o'clock in the evening. Everything has adapted and changed than when you come there at 10 o'clock in the evening. Everything has adapted and changed because people have had their meals. They're now more into drinking and socializing, and so it's more about the visual communication in fact we had with the Atlas bar when we did mock-ups. We even had setups that how close were seats compared to the coffee table? How was the relationship when people were sitting down in terms of communicating with each other, in terms of where they can put their glass or their drink? So for us, one of the do's is to be involved in that process, understanding how the space is going to be used and how your lighting is going to contribute to the overall experience.

As I said before, you can't design from behind your desk. You can do a big part and the more experience you have, you can do more remotely. But being in there sitting in a chair, understanding how lighting impacts on how you communicate with your partner or your friends or your business relationship that you have there, that's really key to be able to design properly. It's also about, as I said, I don't want to see the lighting. It's about, for me, it's all about bringing to life the environment where you will be and where you will be using that space. It's not about the lighting. The lighting will make it happen, right, it's the glue that sort of brings everything together. But in the end, people that are there, they're not thinking all the lighting this or that. No, I'm comfortable.

I like chatting with you. You know, it's like you have this, this socializing aspect going on, in which lighting contributes in terms of mood and ambiences, right. So doing that means you also talk to an operator, the guys that are running the bar. They know also how they serve people, what is going on. They will tell you oh, I need a bit more accentuation of this area, or this is where we have our displays. Please bring that up a bit. That is important to us. So that discussion you're a part of the chain. You need to work as a team. You can't work on yourself, by yourself, on this kind of project. It's really key to immerse yourself in what's going to happen and in collaborating with the whole team to get the result. As the Atlas Bar, vietnam, singapore, go man, my name is.

John from Singapore. I heard your experiences at Sheffield, having the LDOT especially so with that in place, do you foresee the future of your lighting design in your top process? Will you be more towards the science or towards art, because it's project dependent here?

Yeah, yeah, thank you. I mean, one of the key questions sometimes is lighting art or science, right? And I think there's both. Obviously, we are sort of artists. I have a picture that I use where there are scallops on the wall and the artist is having that scallop and moving that scallop as a painting around in the space. Because that's what we do. We paint with light, in a way, because light produces visual effects. I can't see light here. It's just because it reflects of my hand that I know there's light but I can't grab the light. It's basically it becomes visible once it reflects of something, right, which means that scallops or lighting beams become visible when they reflect of space. So, playing around with that, how that interacts and interferes in a way with space, that's the artistry, right. But knowing how to produce those beams, what sort of intensities, the color, that is technology, that's the science, right. So that's the combination that you need to have as a lighting designer Understanding innovation, technology and having the artistic knowledge to implement it.

Now, on your question of IoT, it's going to be maybe the third element that will come in right. Science you could potentially say it's science, but to me, data gathering is something on top of it right. We have always worked without that. Now certainly it becomes part of it. Knowing how to deal with it is something that we are still exploring. There's, of course, a lot of and now, mind you, I haven't even mentioned AI and chat, gpt and all these kind of things, because that's a whole new world by itself, but we are using these kind of things already AI, chat, gpt. You know some of my blogs are I write them myself but the introduction I can say Ingmar uses AI or chat GPT to do a small summary and introduction, because it saves time, you know, you just input. So now there's also lighting designers that start to use AI to create concepts.

Now, where that's going, I don't know. We were just at the beginning of that. I think this question is probably really interesting, because even myself I'm not sure whether I want to dive into that because I'm sort of post-career time in my life Do I still want to go into that? But I think it's very, very interesting and fascinating how that impacts. I mean, you can create. I've seen conceptual designs that are created by AI and I'm like, all right, looks really nice, Can it be realized? I don't know right, but conceptual images, yes, could be really interesting. So I don't know yet. I don't have the answer to that because it's something that really is fresh to many of us.

I have to say, in my 45 years this has been an amazing journey in lighting because when I started I had a fluorescent tube and an incandescent lamp. That's basically. I didn't have a computer, right. The only thing that we had when I started in Philips was a huge mainframe computer that was I don't know the size of, I don't know, but the room was probably about five by six meters, totally air conditioned, humidity controlled and all that. I had to spend the whole afternoon in doing punch cards that I had to feed into the computer, go home to see the calculation next year next day. It will calculate overnight.

So I've come a long way from that level of technology to where we are today, where we have very innovative LED solutions, now with data input, and now I think the next step is with AI and what have you as well. So where we are going is difficult to say, because you can, with AI, you can create content. That's the new element, I think from lighting design is content creation, because lights not only have all the colors of the rainbow, you can get RGBW core chips nowadays that have everything in one point. It's not RGBW, no, it's like in one little chip you have everything right so you can create. So if you can drive that with data or whatever input, you can create the most interesting outcomes. One of the things we are doing with nx mall, by the way. We are creating some sort of content driven lighting effect. So, yeah, that's a new element in which I'm not 100 sure how much I'm going to dive into that myself, but it's certainly something that you guys will have to deal with in the future.

Thank you again. My question is regarding your engagement and your skill set as a designer. Who engages your services first and does it change part two? Does it change region to region, like Annex Mall? You mentioned Middle?

East. Who engages your services first, developer, architect, the hotel gentleman I mentioned before. Good question most of the time I don't want to get on your bad side right now, no, but most of the time we are engaged directly by the client. Right now, how do we get there? That's varies. I would say 80% of our jobs are purely through referral and the clients know us. We are registered with all the major hotel brands, for instance, whether it's Marriott, hilton, accor, we are on their list of approved consultants. So there's a new project, they'll put our name forward. It doesn't mean we get the job because there's others as well, right, but that comes through the front door. Right, we get a call, we get an email. So 80% of our jobs at the moment that's how we get our jobs. I don't have to go for it.

We have established a level of recognition in the market and standing that we are approached directly as our that project. You should go to KLD. That's nice for us to have that sort of status. Then we have our relationship with architects, interior designers, etc. Same thing. We have worked together. They have a new project. They're also sort of our marketing agents sometimes, because we have had a very good relationship with them.

Hey, we have this new project. You want to join us? Same thing, right, so that sometimes we are under the architect or under the interior designer, depending. Then same with with developers, but most of the time it's through clients, directly developers well, the developer, sometimes the client also, right. But then the actual marketing, business development, approaching them. That's only a small part of our business which I would say I should do a bit more. I will get more work, but I'm feeling like it's okay right now. But if I would like to develop the business further, then if, if I do very active marketing and business development because of our standing and reputation, our track record, it should not be too difficult to get more work as well. But yeah, that's roughly how it works for us.

Just another question Is there any particular lighting trends that you're currently excited about, any upcoming ones?

Lighting trends. Yeah, I'm actually doing a presentation in Guangzhou about the future of lighting design, and one of the things that are happening now is about content. Right, lighting is sort of moving away from your typical fixture into being integrated in building materials. Right, so you will find carpets with integrated lighting walls, wall material, building materials with integrated lighting, glass with integrated LED points. So that is something, and all that is dynamic, so you can create all kinds of interesting contents. That's an important development. So, interactivity with building materials.

We have a big trend regarding dark sky, being able to manage light pollution and things like that. That's something that becomes a bigger and bigger element. And the third one that I would like to mention is regarding health and well-being, or even biophilic design. It's like integrating the nature, the way our human body works towards lighting. I think that's also a very important trend, where we look at circadian rhythms and how lighting impacts on human well-being. I think these will be the three main trends at the moment on human well-being. I think this will be the three main trends at the moment. I may have forgotten one or two, but yeah, to answer your question, that will be three main points that.

I would like to mention Thank you. I believe that is all the questions, Martin.

No, it's fantastic. You've been great. Thank you so much for your questions been great. Thank you so much for your questions. Thank you, martin, for sharing. By the way, it doesn't stop here. If they still have questions, they can channel it to you or anybody else and you can let me know. Maybe I can still afterwards.

There's an Excel spreadsheet already being circulated. No, no, no, no it's fine.

I mean literally, I'm not kidding. If there's still issues or questions, feel free to collate them and I'll try to answer them in my own time. Happy to do that.

Crew if we could give an absolutely warm, massive round of applause for Martin for sharing his insights, his learnings, his experiences over such an impressive career Still ongoing. Obviously and there's a lot, as I said the lighting industry is evolving and trending and changing as we speak, so let's give a warm round of applause for Mr Martin.

Thank you, thank you, thank you.

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